Arts and Sciences

[joana (Joana)]

How would we ensure that an A&S style crown tournament was judged as objectively as possible?  Is this possible? 

[Sekai (Sekai)]

I don't think there would be a way to judge an A&S crown tournament objectively. Because Art is inherently subjective. There is also the issue of how do you compare one A&S project objectively against another, for example someone that works in fabric arts to someone that does brewing.

The closest thing that I can think of would be if you did a "bottle tournament" in which those taking part in the A&S crown where given X amount of time and the same supplies to complete a preset project selected by the current crown.

For example: Everyone in the crown tournament has 24 hours to complete a bliaut. Everyone taking part does so in the same place, they are observed throughout the process, they are all given the same fabric, thread and tools. Then judged on hand sewing skills, patterning, finishing work, fit and so on.

That seems like the only way to approach sometime like a level A&S field. You couple that with announcing what the project is as far in advance as possible so that everyone that would like to take part has equal time to practice making said project. In the same way heavy fighters practice for crown now.

BUT with that being said, there is the issue of judges for such a tournament is a massive sticking point as well. Given the social pressure that would be placed on anyone undertaking such a role. They would be placed in a position that would make them prime targets for any and all hostile backlash. Things could turn real toxic for those folks very quickly.

I think there would have to be an equally long and involved process of finding judges that could be non-bias and whom the kingdom could view as neutral. The best case for something like this would be judges that were from outside of the SCA, but whom had a costuming background. As such people would have any ties to the SCA and thus no emotional investment (real or imagined) in anyone taking part.

[Margarita Rossetti (Margarita Rossetti)]

BUT with that being said, there is the issue of judges for such a tournament is a massive sticking point as well. Given the social pressure that would be placed on anyone undertaking such a role. They would be placed in a position that would make them prime targets for any and all hostile backlash. Things could turn real toxic for those folks very quickly.

Another way could be for the judges to not know who has completed what project, but it's definitely a method of choosing Crown that would need a lot of thought towards working out how exactly it could be run.

[jacopo_cantaore (Jacopo Cantaore)]

One option I've seen that could work for judging is the model used by 4H in the U.S. and other countries. One example rubric is here.

There are still the same problems with training judges and preventing politics from leaking into the process, but I believe this may be a good place to start a discussion.

Another potential problem is that 4H judging presumes judging in a single category, so any A&S tournament using this method would need to be limited likewise.

[William_Castille (William Castille)]

A potential way to make it less open to opinion is to have at least 5 judges
e.g. the current Crown, a member of the landed Baronage, a Royal peer and at least 2 of the clerks of peerages

One concern I have is how do you make it open enough to encompass enough people but not so open that it is too difficult to judge one entry against another?

[luan (Anluan mac Faelain)]

Brewing Crown - Blind Judging by the Crown, 2 Craftsmen or Masters of the Guild, and 2 commoners.

Would ensure a pretty fair contest and prob not hard to get judges for.

[melissawijffels (Melissa Wijffels)]

For example: Everyone in the crown tournament has 24 hours to complete a bliaut. Everyone taking part does so in the same place, they are observed throughout the process, they are all given the same fabric, thread and tools. Then judged on hand sewing skills, patterning, finishing work, fit and so on.

This could run into a very different problem -- who chooses the topic? Because of the very diverse nature of Lochac's artisans, the very act of choosing a topic will exclude some portion of potential entrants. The person who makes this decision would have the power to pre-select a wedge of the artisan population for being potential competitors. For example, those specialising in woodworking, blacksmithing or agriculture may not also have a talent for sewing.

One could alternate the field of the competition each reign, but if A&S is being alternated with another selection format (e.g. rapier, archery, etc), then it may be many years before an aspiring artisan can contest the throne.

[Kinggiyadai Orlok (Kinggiyadai Orlok)]

One more problem with Arts & Sciences competitions is that for (arguably) any art or science field it is possible to find highly skilled individuals from the mundane world, and utterly foreign to our culture and population.

We would definitely need this method paired with a more stringent set of eligibility requirements.

[Simon of Cluain (Simon of Cluain)]

Brewing Crown - Blind Judging by the Crown, 2 Craftsmen or Masters of the Guild, and 2 commoners.

Would ensure a pretty fair contest and prob not hard to get judges for.

Ok, never until now have I considered contending for crown, but you had me before I read further than brewing crown and my smile was in full view by the end. Thus, have you engaged a member of the populace in a positive, inclusive manner and oh boy yes.

[Llewelyn ap Dafydd (Llewelyn ap Dafydd)]

Yeah - A&S comps tend to give me hives in general, and especially for anything with high stakes prizes.

Either you have a wide topic, and end up having to objectively compare a 16th century italian dance performance to a pair of C14 turnshoes (and odds on the judges know less about the topic than the candidate), or you have a narrow field of entry, can source expert judges for it, but the topic picked vastly tilts the field to the point you're picking your semifinalists before the tournament starts.

Documentation requirements don't help, IMO, as producing high quality, well presented documentation is a separate skill from crafting that is almost orthogonal to the the actual crafting itself - requiring high quality doco just changes the comp to being a doco comp, without solving the fundamental problem.

[Vicontessa (Lucrezia Lorenz)]

It occurred to me that a Crown Weekend could have a series of skill-based competitions, where both potential King and Queen compete. Heavy and rapier tournaments, arts-based skills, teaching - each gaining a series of points from different judges. That way, all points must be accumulated by a certain time, for a result to be announced. We may get royalty who, despite not being the best heavy fighter, as in the past, but are amazing at cooking, rapier or calligraphy, and recognised as such.
Thoughts?

[Uberto (Uberto Renaldi)]

It occurred to me that a Crown Weekend could have a series of skill-based competitions, where both potential King and Queen compete. Heavy and rapier tournaments, arts-based skills, teaching - each gaining a series of points from different judges. That way, all points must be accumulated by a certain time, for a result to be announced. We may get royalty who, despite not being the best heavy fighter, as in the past, but are amazing at cooking, rapier or calligraphy, and recognised as such.
Thoughts?

This could work, but it would be alot of effort for the event steward(s). And even though familiarity with a wide range of activities is probably a good thing for our royalty to have, the requirement to compete in many different fields may also limit the number of people willing to enter.

Despite that, I think it's an option worth serious consideration.

[Sekai (Sekai)]

It occurred to me that a Crown Weekend could have a series of skill-based competitions, where both potential King and Queen compete. Heavy and rapier tournaments, arts-based skills, teaching - each gaining a series of points from different judges. That way, all points must be accumulated by a certain time, for a result to be announced. We may get royalty who, despite not being the best heavy fighter, as in the past, but are amazing at cooking, rapier or calligraphy, and recognised as such.
Thoughts?

I pitched version of this idea over on the general board. If you want to toss your thoughts towards that idea.

This could work, but it would be alot of effort for the event steward(s). And even though familiarity with a wide range of activities is probably a good thing for our royalty to have, the requirement to compete in many different fields may also limit the number of people willing to enter.

Despite that, I think it's an option worth serious consideration.

[Simon of Cluain (Simon of Cluain)]

I have no problem with A&S being a Crown contending choice. The details of such are of course more difficult than last one standing. Perhaps in the round-robin scheme those who wish to contend the A&S tourney will need to contest X number of competitions, X number of set piece A&S challenges. The ranking of all who contend compound over the course of the multiple events. If we liken it to a double elimination heavy bout with X contenders where slowly the contenders are whittled down until there are just two in the final judging. Yes, this is not easy, nor quick, nor simple but I have the will and the enthusiasm to support this if not the skill to compete at this level at multi-discipline. By Huginn and Muninn my geas calls to me and though I might fall at the first cut n'ere would I lief as had the town-crier spake myne lines.

[EleonoraRose (Eleonora Rose)]

Yeah - A&S comps tend to give me hives in general, and especially for anything with high stakes prizes.

Either you have a wide topic, and end up having to objectively compare a 16th century italian dance performance to a pair of C14 turnshoes (and odds on the judges know less about the topic than the candidate), or you have a narrow field of entry, can source expert judges for it, but the topic picked vastly tilts the field to the point you're picking your semifinalists before the tournament starts.

I agree 100% with this. It's one thing to compete against others in your own field of expertise, but it would feel wrong (to me) to have my weaving judged against someone else's Epic Poem or 14th C sugar bun (random examples), they are just too disparate.

You've also got limited chance of anonymity (if we hope to avoid bias by making entries anonymous) because fields of expertise can be so specialised. There may be only one or two people practicing in the same field as you, and chances are you are well known in that field if you are contesting Crown.

I really wish there was a good way of doing this, because the A&S provides so much richness to our SCA experience; without it our game would be dull indeed. I shall follow along in case someone comes up with a real corker of an idea.